[idea] IDDC balance problems and new IDDC-like mode

[tangar]

I got to the first IDDC town @ -1000. And.. I'm a bit disapointed. Now I see that the best way for success in IDDC is actually grind like this:

1) create "A" character (for example, batty with stealing), go till -1000. It would be your "bank" character.
2) create "B" second IDDC character (batty rogue again - cause of speed bonus) and go like a hurricane to -1000
3) take all stuff from "B" to "A". Your bank character would get ~20k gold, useful items and equipment
4) delete "B" character and go paragraph 2
5) when you get enough gold for top equip - create your "main" char and play. Do it till you get to -2000 & repeat there.

In the same moment you are free to steal as much as you could at your "batty" character to equip your main. Also a lot of cheeze there.

So every player got a choice - to grind to be successful or play without cheezing and forget about Ironman Deep Dive Scores...

There could be a solution - to disable possibility to transfer items between characters in cities.. but I'm not sure that it would be well accepted by players who like everything like it is right now. So maybe the best way - to create new IDDC-like mode with such parameters:

1) only 1 character limit (players still would have possibility to cheeze, but it would be much harder)
2) no dungeon towns (shops for mages books are quite often on common dungeon lvls) and no static lvls
3) no sales and no stealing in shops (so players would cheeze shops for eternity, but actually _play_ the game)

It would make game IDDC more dynamic and fair - all players would be equal, no matter how much characters you've dont and how much hours you stayed in the shop

[tangar]

Continuing brainstorm:

it wouldn't really fun to remove dungeon towns completely.. May be just make them not-static at certain depths, but random? So you would meet cities in dungeons at random depths and they wouldn't be static.

Please guys, continue... Make your suggestion how IDDC could be improved.

p.s.
I ranamed topic from [impressions] to [idea].

[tangar]

Another problems which influence at IDDC balance:

1) seasonal bonuses. I heard that the best time to play IDDC - near winter cause you could get some boosts from season events. its not fair... Iron Man has to be Iron Man and equal all the year.

Possible solution: exclude useful rewards in IDDC (leave only deco rewards)

2) true artifacts.. there is problem with them cause sometimes there is low IDDC-player-populations and its perfect time to go IDDC and collect all arts.. and sometimes everything already taken, so you need to wait or forget about arts.. It has to be rebalanced imho

Possible solution: make possibility to find true art even if other player in IDDC already has it. Also reduce chances to find true arts (like in non-IDDC mode).

Please join discussion to find solutions...

[tangar]

Two more:

1) When you clean the lvl at IDDC, you could go /afk there "forever" (till server reset at least) - cause its totally safe and no monsters would appear. So its possible to make any lvl static for any amount of time. So even if cities wouldn't be static (as I proposed in my 1st message), it would be quite possible to cheeze items from one character to another with this simple feature.

Possible solution: make it possible for monsters to appear at lvl after 30 minutes (they wouldn't give any exp)


ALREADY SOLVED. 2) I didn't tested, but maybe you even could do such "dirty" trick - create new char, go to -50 IDDC, ask your friend to come there (to make lvl static)... Then you come there with new chars and put your starter gold on the floor (700 gold is a lot for IDDC-mode) -> suicide -> create new char -> repeat. In 30 minutes It would be extra 30k gold. Even more faster than if you would go till -1000 with batty char (as I described in 1st message). I think its just the fastest way to become rich in earlier (<2000) IDDC.. And it gives strong foundation for success in late game. Quite dirty cheeze, if its possible to do such thingy.

Possible solution: forbid to take other players items till certain depths

[Lightman]

Trade in IDDC should stay. Seperate IDDC highscores for new "NO_TRADE" characters would fix it.

[tokariew]

/* Special anti-cheeze hack: Disallow carrying items from town to IDDC and
giving them to another character inside IDDC, for the first n floors. */
#define IDDC_NO_TRADE_CHEEZE 5

there is already define anti-cheeze for not allowing trading in first 5 floors…

If IDDC have no special rules, monster can spawn again after some time again on lvl, time depend on depth I think, so clearing lvl don't mean it will be safe forever.

Without static Cities, you can't logout safetly. I mean, after you log in again, you can be spawn in really nasty situation. I happy that It's not now possible to spawn in mountains or walls

About stealing it possible that item that you steal will become lvl 0, so you will unable to transfer it to other account.

Season Events you have two, Halloween, and Christmas. Santa can only appear in towns, and you can't hunt it in bree to get item for IDDC, because you will get xp for picking good stuff. Great pumpkin is great pumpkin and even if I didn't play for a while I each year login to hunt for it Event is fun, don't take them for players.

No trade char mode, don't help it just discourages players to play in parties… Why players who play in parties should have another leaderboard.

[tangar]

Trade in IDDC should stay. Seperate IDDC highscores for new "NO_TRADE" characters would fix it.

Its better then nothing, but it would destroy economic element... So we need to think about more flexible solutions.

there is already define anti-cheeze for not allowing trading in first 5 floors…

Nice to hear.

If IDDC have no special rules, monster can spawn again after some time again on lvl, time depend on depth I think, so clearing lvl don't mean it will be safe forever.

Are you sure? I heard another information. If you would receive exp for such new spawned monsters - it would give possibility to cheeze even more (just stay at one lvl for a lot of time and wait for new spawns to get exp).

Without static Cities, you can't logout safetly. I mean, after you log in again, you can be spawn in really nasty situation. I happy that It's not now possible to spawn in mountains or walls

You need to logoff in dungeon anyway. Its quite hard thing to go from one city to another in one go.

About stealing it possible that item that you steal will become lvl 0, so you will unable to transfer it to other account.

Its very low probability. Most of stolen items are sellable.

Season Events you have two, Halloween, and Christmas. Santa can only appear in towns, and you can't hunt it in bree to get item for IDDC, because you will get xp for picking good stuff. Great pumpkin is great pumpkin and even if I didn't play for a while I each year login to hunt for it Event is fun, don't take them for players.

you could have any events in non-IDDC mode. Main point - IDDC has to be the same in all time of a year. But again, I propose not to change current IDDC, but to create new IDDC-like mode with more strict rules.

No trade char mode, don't help it just discourages players to play in parties… Why players who play in parties should have another leaderboard.

Again - there is no intention to change current IDDC mode. If you like it - you are welcome to play traditional way. But as I feel for myself - I want to play IDDC-like mode without grind shopping, grind lifting, grind stealing and other cheezing.

Why IDDC called IDDC?

IronMan - it has to be hard, without right on mistake. At the same time it has to be equal for everyone; main thing has to be your game skill, you experience and knowledge; not just the time which you spend in shops.

Deep Dive - It has to be diving. Deep - with minimal time for cheezing something somewhere. Dive! Not to sit in city for some days.

Challenge - it whas to be competition. Fair. So everyone would have equal options and possibilites.

Its the new IDDC-like mode I dream to see one day.

[tokariew]

Tangar if you don't like to cheeze don't cheeze. Simply as that. I don't know any multi game which don't allow cheeze in some way (Maybe because i don't play many). You block cheezing in one way and player will find other way to cheeze.
I play few times in IDDC, and always tried to go from town to town.
Maybe we should just delete all shops in IDDC, don't allow any drop from monster, and from killing orders and player will start already in IDDC to not hunt for high discount in shops? Then you probably will prevent cheezing

My little comment about no trade was to Lightman post. No trading just kill parties.

[tangar]

There is no way to ignore cheezing, especially if there is a competition. And we got it http://www.tomenet.eu/legends-iddc.php . You don't cheeze - you have little chances to compete with people who do. And competition is very important in online games.

One of the most important rules in game design - to prevent "easy way". In every TomeNET patch or update there are stuff which fix cheezing and broken game balance. Its how all MMORGPs actually functions. To repair broken stuff, make everything more fair and better. Thats why we got, for example

Necro disabled for some classes. Trauma disabled for mimics.

OR

Beholders/Eye of the Deep can cast 'Unmagic' spell.

Its kinda preventing cheezing with ezpz builds or making some monsters more challenging.

Concerning "Tangar if you don't like to cheeze don't cheeze". If you like (or don't like) cheezing - DIY, I'm ok with that; but please don't advice another people what to do. If I see a problem - I make a suggestion, not just sit and ignore it. If you don't like this particular idea - its ok, we understood your opinion But I hope to find constructive discussion there, not just flaming around.

[Lightman]

If spending time in towns is unfair, towns could slowly drain your XP. That would put an end to making "camps" in the towns.

Are you sure setting up camps is really something to punish?