[suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

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tangar
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[suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

Post by tangar »

Main problems of current IDDC mode:
- IDDC is heavely based at shopping. Example: famous IDDC player 'Pondos' just said he is after to buy +speed boots for his character for a _month_.
- Cheezing. The most simple one - create new char, go -1000, sell everything and give ~25k gold (+items, some of which could cost 50k+) to your main char & repeat.

Suggestions:

1) you could order anything in any IDDC shop, any item (except arts) and it would be 100% normal price for your order. Sales and discounts removed entirely.

// it would make shopping fast and enjoyable. All you need - to count your gold to be able to buy right items. All classes would be able to buy what do they need.

Implementation: 'Order' function already there, but now its forbidden to 'o' a lot of items; also not possible to do it from '7'.

2) fair trade, you can't transfer money or items without anything in return. If you would just drop item/gold on the floor - another character can't pick it up (except food and oil?). To trade/transfer item you have to put it at 'player store' in the dungeon-town; another player able to buy it at 100% sell-to-NPC price.

- several 'player store' (small 3x3 storage houses) would appear in every 'dungeon towns' and sometimes such lvl could be found in dungeon itself (like mushroom stores or hidden library)
- player could 'buy' store for 1 gold. Actually its a rent - cause at next lvl reset 'player stores' wouldn't be saved.

Example: 'player A' wants to sell 'Dark sword' to 'player B'. 'Player A' buys 'player store' for 1 gold and put there 'Dark sword' with @S. 'Player B' now could buy sword for 100% sell-to-NPC price (its ~1k for Dark Sword) from the store. 'Player A' receive his gold, everyone is happy and fair.

// It would leave possibility to exchange items between players, BUT make it legit via gold, prevent any kind of cheezing.

Another fun thing: it would also give a nice possibility to exchange items between characters at the same account (although you have to be careful - to do it fast, before town theme regenerate).

Implementation: 'player stores' already there, but it would be quite hard to customize it for IDDC.

3) Stealing restrictions. Its forbidden to sell stolen goods at via 'player store'

// I even think stealing could be restricted a bit more to prevent long-term steal-cheeze. Rogues has to have some benefit from stealing, but not as much as they got now. Maybe even restrict stealing only to shop #5? Rogues have 'stealth mode', its already pretty powerful advantage to other classes in IDDC...

Implementation: There are already exist some stealing restrictions; customize it a bit more.

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All this three steps wouldn't change too much current IDDC balance so its no really needed to create new mode and divide TomeNET community to different corners; also no need to reset ladder/characters. IDDC just would become more fun, but would stay as challenging as always.

Please add your thoughts :)
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the_sandman
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Re: [suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

Post by the_sandman »

How does this:
tangar wrote:1) you could order anything in any IDDC shop
.. fix this:
tangar wrote: - Cheezing. The most simple one - create new char, go -1000, sell everything and give ~25k gold (+items, some of which could cost 50k+) to your main char & repeat.

tangar wrote:2) fair trade
"Fair" by whose definition? To offer some counter opinions here: I don't think buying anything for 1g is "fair." I think giving away items to friends are fair.

This is probably one area where enforcement is a horrible idea.



#3 basically eliminates more people from IDDC since stealing would be useless. AFAIK there are more than a few dedicated thieves in there right now.
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tangar
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Re: [suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

Post by tangar »

the_sandman wrote:How does this:
tangar wrote:1) you could order anything in any IDDC shop
.. fix this:
tangar wrote: - Cheezing. The most simple one - create new char, go -1000, sell everything and give ~25k gold (+items, some of which could cost 50k+) to your main char & repeat.
Actually it fix for this:
- IDDC is heavely based at shopping. Example: famous IDDC player 'Pondos' just said he is after to buy +speed boots for his character for a _month_.
the_sandman wrote:
tangar wrote:2) fair trade
"Fair" by whose definition? To offer some counter opinions here: I don't think buying anything for 1g is "fair." I think giving away items to friends are fair.

This is probably one area where enforcement is a horrible idea.
Its fix for cheezing. So players wouldn't be able
to transfer money or items without anything in return
the_sandman wrote: #3 basically eliminates more people from IDDC since stealing would be useless. AFAIK there are more than a few dedicated thieves in there right now.

Stealing it isn't what makes IDDC fun. People playing IDDC not because of sitting in 'dungeon towns' for months, but because of possibility to have different - extreamely hard and interesting - playstyle.

Currently stealing is heavy cheezing for IDDC which help people to get items which they want for long-term grind. Its wrong concept of progression. You has to hunt items (or gold - to buy items) in dungeons, not sitting your pants in town.
Tangar's tileset, addon, guides & maps: English TomeNET page ||||||| Russian TomeNet page
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tokariew
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Re: [suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

Post by tokariew »

this "fair" trade is big no for parties :D what if warrior "mule" pick up items which are good for another player in parties, and they can't give away item because they don't have enough money?

3. What with runies and adventures, they can train stealing too? Aren't player sitting in town to buy equip with discounts? How blocking stealing prevent staying in town to buy on discount? It's actually make longer to wait probably, because party stealer can't acquire items for party… and you sit and wait to buy good stuff for whole party on discount…

I'm not sure if its possible to eliminate cheezing without hurting party playing, and party playing is the probably the most "funny" thing to do in tomenet…
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tangar
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Re: [suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

Post by tangar »

tokariew wrote:this "fair" trade is big no for parties :D what if warrior "mule" pick up items which are good for another player in parties, and they can't give away item because they don't have enough money?
its totally ok for parties, making party gameplay much more interesting, with obligatory $ exchange for items. Get to 'dungeon town', trade anything with anyone. Or even find 'player store' in dungeon and trade there. Totally fair and legit.
tokariew wrote: 3. What with runies and adventures, they can train stealing too? Aren't player sitting in town to buy equip with discounts? How blocking stealing prevent staying in town to buy on discount? It's actually make longer to wait probably, because party stealer can't acquire items for party… and you sit and wait to buy good stuff for whole party on discount…
Its not blocking, but making its not possible to sell stolen items to other players. And if there would be possibility to steal too much different items (not restrict to #5 shop) - it would make 'stealing-able' chars too powerful (much better equipment) in compare to other classes who can't steal and can't buy stolen good. Stealing has to be fun, without much grind and possibilities to cheeze over other classes. Items obtaining has to be ~equal to all classes.
tokariew wrote:I'm not sure if its possible to eliminate cheezing without hurting party playing, and party playing is the probably the most "funny" thing to do in tomenet…
This 3 steps would make cheezing with items/gold _not possible_ at all, but still it would pretty easy to trade items. Yes, there wouldn't be cheezy way to get free item from a friend if you didn't give anything in return. Wanna got free items, cheeze and pew-pew everything? Don't play Ironman, there is NE and EL with a lot of 'items freedom' :) IDDC has to be fair.

----

Also I'm very glad to say that Pondos said that this ideas are "very good" :)
Tangar's tileset, addon, guides & maps: English TomeNET page ||||||| Russian TomeNet page
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tokariew
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Re: [suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

Post by tokariew »

you find a great ego item before first town, and other players in party don't have enough money to "buy" it from you (they are terrible at collecting money or just they don't have enough str to cary a lot of precious items, so they don't have even good stuff to sell to acquire more gold), in your idea i can't transfer gold to party member, so he/she is not able to 'buy' this item from you unless collect enough money…

i'm not sure if this idea are trade friendly, i see couple situation, when i will not be able to trade within party (one char in party, with all party gold to buy items for whole party, because it is best looking char, big no no in your proposition :p)


thank the RN goddess that transfering other way is not cheezing :twisted:
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tangar
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Re: [suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

Post by tangar »

Yes, and its fair. Do not have gold to buy item for 'NPC price' - sell something, get gold and buy item. Fair and square :) And 'pre-first-town' isn't so critical, its quite easy to get to first town even for quite new players without much trading.

Parties in IDDC quite good balanced VS solo gameplay - party have pretty good exp bonus (its higher than outside of IDDC), but less loot. In any case 'dungeon towns' would be always most popular places for trading, so possibility to trade via 'player shops' would be quite sufficiently for comforting playing with party or without.
Tangar's tileset, addon, guides & maps: English TomeNET page ||||||| Russian TomeNet page
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Pondos
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Re: [suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

Post by Pondos »

Hello everybody, finally made this up.

Something has to be done to make this faster and enjoyable.

This will be short.

1. Allow trading freely only with those players wich did enter in a same party. How hard this would be on codewise, I do not know.
2. Make shops to have constant prizes, like 75% of normal prizes. No more extra sales allowed. Special potionshop on 2k and 4k out of this idea, that shop never on anykind of sale.
3. Weaponsmith, armoury, temple and general store should be full of egos only. Nobody needs basic items.
4. Black Market also same 75% of normal prices constant. That means you really need that cash for trickery amulet if want one.
Last edited by Pondos on Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: [suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

Post by Pondos »

One more thing, if theese major changes are to up. Old history needs to be fixed. Make a deadline, wich would drive all existing chars dive and try it.
After deadline, all IDDC chars would be deleted and toplist cleared. But old toplist stored somewhere on website example. We need a fresh start. :)
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the_sandman
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Re: [suggestion] IDDC reform: 3 steps

Post by the_sandman »

If you are waiting and willing to dive only with a perfect set of gear and nothing less... well, I dare say you are being highly unreasonable. You are free to camp the town for such specific items since it is 100% safe. Surface towns do not have feature. The amount of waiting you do, however, is completely and utterly up to you.

Not everything is meant to be affordable, buyable, etc. for every single one of your character. This isn't a sandbox game. Reaching -1k IDDC does not mean you now will be perfectly geared to reach 2k town, and so on.

Those potion/weapon/armor stores (that sell egos/stats pots at normal prices) were luxurious additions, meant as great and rare finds as you proceed through-- only if you have the cash on hand, of course.

"Cheezing" is a relative term, differ in definition from one person to the next. If you insist only on trading with specific characters/parties, or not at all-- don't let us stop you.

The top list will always be "imbalanced," no matter what. This isn't a game where each person gets their own instanced map and monsters and loot, where the random seeds can be "sync"ed for everyone and the luck factor be taken out of it.

Speaking of cheezing, this is the ultimate cheeze, isn't it? These are (100% my opinion) short-sighted proposals that won't solve anything. (apart from trivializing loot acquisition and therefore the game)


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More of my own personal rants, in trying to (hopefully) be encouraging:

I understand it is difficult and it feels bad to continue diving, knowing that your character lack resses/speed/potions/stats characters. Reaching the town itself is already commendable. The lack of stairs going up is terrifying, but that's the game, isn't it?

It's the same everywhere else. Everyone should try Mt. Doom at least once (and not only for Sauron) to feel that adrenaline rush. I remember my first time there, as an Ent mimic (I did carry an immunity torch, though) before getting used to it and going back there with subsequent characters. This was before Sauron moved in. (PS: gold drs, horned reapers and nightwalkers are very common here)

What mimics don't long to make Erebor their home? All dragons all the time? Yes, please! The risks shouldn't dissuade you from reaching for the rewards.

I got hit for 400 damage on the first trap that I ever hit in Angband (with my first ever green DR mimic with nearly 900 hp! What could possibly go wrong?!) and died to the first Archon that I saw.

It's part of the challenge.
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